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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:19 pm 
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If you think so, just use a PIC18F2550 with my firmware https://sites.google.com/site/pcusbprojects/4-velleman-experiment-board-k8055-pic-replacement/w-velleman-k8055-1-board-easy-upgrade

By the way:

Bill Gates ones stated: “640K ought to be enough for anybody”. Today’s PCs have abundance of memory and computing power compared to the previous generations of PCs and they cost equal or less, but we still use them to write simple texts that we could easily type on 15 years old computers with Windows XP.. But it is more fun to have nicer graphics and nice gadgets that come with Windows 7 and Windows 8…

The same holds for microcontrollers: PIC32MX250F128B costs almost the same. It has the same 28-SDIP casing. It has similar functional units, but many of them are much more advanced versions that enable much higher precision of output signal generation and much better input signal analysis... It is easily accessible from a VB.NET application with the DLLs and HEX files provided on PC USB Project website... It is just a lots more functionality for an euro more.. Backward compatibility with PIC18F24J50 and K8055N is provided... So I see no reason, why not... But if you have storage full obsolete 8-bit microcontrollers and an obsolete microcontroller programmer it is entirely your problem... I would not use a PC XT today. The biggest problem with PIC18 is the lack of RAM..... By the way... Many people think that you need to modify K8055 or K8055N PCB to connect a PIC32MX250F128B adapter, but in fact this is not true.. You just remove the obsolete PIC16C745 or PIC18F24J50 and plug in the adapter.... The adapter is really cheap to build... As much as I know, you have to modify the PCB to connect PIC18F2550 and you cannot program it without taking it of the PCB... PIC18F24J50, PIC18F265J50 and PIC32MX250F128B all use low programming voltage and can be easily reprogrammed in place with your own programmer or PICkit3. But, if you are building your own circuit (without K8055 or K8055N), it is almost no difference in the number of electrical elements, if you use PIC32MX250F128B, or PIC18F24J50...
Anyway, PIC18F26J50 FW version with a low frequency generator will be provided soon, since the already working C++ functions for PIC32MX250F128B will have to be just a little optimized to use less RAM...

By the way! How many independent LF PWM channels do your FW support? Or, how many servo motors can your FW drive? One or more?

Cheers!


Last edited by simonvav on Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:43 pm 
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The P8055-1 board needs minimal modifications. The USB low speed pull up resistor R35 must be removed. When using the PIC18F25K50, no further modifications are necessary as the PIC has an accurate enough internal oscillator and can ignore the 6 MHz crystal. When using a PIC18F2550, the crystal needs to be replaced with a 4 MHz one.

Zero modifications are necessary for the P8055N-2 board.

I use the 2550 or 25K50 since both have 256 bytes of EEPROM. I plan to implement functionality that uses the EEPROM for startup configuration and settings. For example, one could configure the PIC so that it on power on uses digital outputs 1-4 in servo mode and set to neutral (1.5 ms pulse width) or some other values.

Both chips are pin compatible and no adapter is needed. They simply replace the original PIC.

The Open8055 firmware is currently written to be used with the HID boot loader. Once that is programmed with a PicKit3 or similar, the chip stays on the board and can be reprogrammed with new firmware via USB, very fast and easy. It might be worthwhile to switch to the Microchip boot loader. I believe that one can even be used from within the IDE, but I haven't checked that yet. Also the P8055N-2 board has an ICSP header, so no chip removal necessary even if you don't want to use a boot loader. The PicKit3 programmer is supported by the Microchip IDE.

The Open8055 firmware drives up to 8 servos on the digital output ports. The firmware uses interrupts for the precise timing of less than +/- 1 microsecond for the pulse length. It does not use the CCP modules for that, so the regular two PWM/DAC outputs are still available to be used for motor control or other applications. The firmware also continues to produce the last output signals when it is connected to a powered hub and the PC is disconnected/powered off. This whole setup can be used to build stand alone micro controller experiments.

With all its functionality, the Open8055 firmware doesn't even use half the memory of a PIC18F2550 yet. This might have to do with the fact that my programming experience goes back to the time, when 64 KB RAM in a desktop computer were considered a lot. When working with micro controllers, I just go back to the programming habits that we used to have in those days.

BTW, I found that the K8055 and K8055N have so much noise on the supply rail, which is also used as ADC reference voltage, that 10 bits precision are not really achievable. The Open8055 firmware currently does use 10 bits and continuously samples both ADC channels (also using interrupts). An HID report can at the most be sent once per millisecond, so the firmware calculates the average of all measurements since the last HID report was sent. Not optimal but better than just taking one sample.


Last edited by MostlyHarmless on Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:34 pm 
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My designs need no modifications of PCB at all, except for PIC18F2550 and K8055-1 board: https://sites.google.com/site/pcusbprojects/4-velleman-experiment-board-k8055-pic-replacement You just plug in a newly programmed chip PIC18F24J50 or PIC18F26J50 or an adapter with PIC32MX250F128B. You can always return the original chip with a simple replacement. No soldering, no risk of damaginig the expensive Velleman PCB.... You can also program and debug all three chips above "on the fly" with PICkit3 through SK9 connector, or connector on the PIC32MX250F128B to K8055 or K8055N adapter (see the adapter specifications on PC USB Projects website)...

PIC32MX250F128B FW uses interrupts, too.

Let me explain about the bootloader... If one has an intention to program the microcontroller in VB.NET, C#.NET or C++.NET he or she would probably not need to program the microcotroller directly. However, PC USB Project PIC32MX250F128B firmware allows entering new programming code in RAM as well as into EEPROM. The appropriate USB commands are already available. Entering user defined exectable code into RAM enables one to check the design prior to programming the code into EEPROM. It much easier to generate locations independent executable code for PIC32MX250F128B than PIC18F microcontrollers, where there are many limitations posed by Harward CPU architecture. PIC32MX250F128B has the same basic architecture as a PC or an Apple Mac.... When you have your code in place, you have just to run it...

QUOTE: "BTW, I found that the K8055 and K8055N have so much noise on the supply rail, which is also used as ADC reference voltage, that 10 bits precision are not really achievable. The Open8055 firmware currently does use 10 bits and continuously samples both ADC channels (also using interrupts). An HID report can at the most be sent once per millisecond, so the firmware calculates the average of all measurements since the last HID report was sent. Not optimal but better than just taking one sample."

You should check your PC's (or the workstation's that you use) power supply, or the USB cables that you use. I use quality USB 2.0 cables and a quality 650 W power supply in my PC and I have never experienced such problems. 10-bits A/D conversion is easily achievable, if you setup the microcontroller's ADC according to Microchip's specifications. It is important to know that all sound cards and inbuilt sound chips on PC’s motherboards work from 16-bits up to 32-bits precision and they also do not experience such problems

So, where is your design advantage?


Last edited by simonvav on Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:38 pm 
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You cannot possibly use any of the J chips on an unmodified K8055 board. It supplies 5V to Vdd and the J chips are designed for 3.3V. You would damage the chip. The PIC18F2550 and PIC18F25K50 can run on both, 3.3V and 5V.

You also cannot possibly use full speed USB with an unmodified K8055 board. R35 forces the USB connection to be low speed. It must be removed.

Your claim "No soldering, no risk of damaginig the expensive Velleman PCB" therefor can only apply to the K8055N. Quite honestly, I think someone who has successfully assembled the K8055 is not going to "damage" the board when removing one resistor.

Code doesn't go into EEPROM, it goes into Flash. With the Flash being good for guaranteed 10,000 programming cycles (in reality you get many more), there is very little advantage of running code in RAM first. Especially if the chip can be flashed with a boot loader over USB.

The advantage of using a pin compatible PIC is that one doesn't need an adapter. An adapter means completely unnecessary extra cost.


Last edited by MostlyHarmless on Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:06 am 
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If you want to use a PIC18F24J50 or a PIC18F26J50 microcontroller on a K8055 board, you have to use a simple adapter from PC USB Projects website, because it is not entirely pin compatible with PIC16C745.
But you still do not need to modify your K8055 experiment board: No soldering on the original Velleman PCB! The adapter works with USB 2.0 full speed, so you even make your K8055 board to communicate with your PC much faster.... You just make the adapter and you plug it in… That’s it.. If you want to remove it, you take it out and you replace it with the original chip… I suggest that you closely observe the numerous photos on my website.
The fact is also that if you program a microcontroller in place, it is 2 or 3 times faster than if you have to pull out the chip every time you need to reprogram it. K8055 board lacks this connector, but my PIC32MX250F128B adapter has it. It is also easy to add such a connector to the PIC18F2xJ50 to K8055 adapter.... No wonder, why K8055N boards were designed with SK9 connectors. The connectors perfectly fit to PICkit3 though Velleman has never officially described their real purpose. But it is clear to me that if you want to program K8055N board, you can do it directly via SK9 connector with PICkit2 or PICkit3. You need no bootloader or programming header… You can also do it without ever removing the microcontroller. Debugging in place is also a big plus.. With PICkit3 you can even debug in real time... It’s at least 10 times faster than classical programming..., because you can instantly see what is not working in your code...

Even more: Uploading an executable code to microcontroller's RAM speeds up debugging (no time needed for programming the microcontroller EEPROM) and greaty widens the posibilties to use different algoritms. Suppose that you are building a truly universal microcontroller (not just for Microchip microcontrollers) and all kinds of (E)EPROMs programmer... There are so many different programming algorithms that they could hardly all fit into the microcontroller's EEPROM, but they can be easily uploaded from a PC any time you need them...

So, where is your design advantage?


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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:38 am 
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simonvav wrote:
So, where is your design advantage?


I personally think that the removal of one single resistor is a lot simpler that this:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:45 am 
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Ok. You got just one of the working prototype photos (maybe not the prettiest one), a proof of concept from PC USB Projects website.

This is much more discriptive photo of the same adapter from a different angle:

Image --->

The adapter on the photo also has an additional simple adapter attached (wires and two transistors) to enable programming of other PIC18F2xJ50 microcontrollers... So infact, there are two adaptes stacked together and of course more wiring..

However, there are just a few electrical elements needed to make a K8055 adapter! Everyone can make a nice PCB... Why haven't you rather attach the adapter circuit schematic: https://sites.google.com/site/pcusbprojects/4-velleman-experiment-board-k8055-pic-replacement/3-k8055-upgrade-from-pic16f745-to-pic18f24j50?

Here are more optimized designs of PIC32MX250F128B prototype adapters:
- to K8055 board https://sites.google.com/site/pcusbprojects/4-velleman-experiment-board-k8055-pic-replacement/q-velleman-k8055-to-pic32mx250f128b-adapter-schematic
- to K8055N board https://sites.google.com/site/pcusbprojects/4-velleman-experiment-board-k8055-pic-replacement/r-velleman-k8055n-board-to-32-bit-pic32mx250f128b-adapter-schematic

Image
Click on the photo to enlarge.

Velleman K8055N board to 32-bit PIC32MX250F128B adapter schematic is composed only of 5 small capatitors, one resistor (not counting the controll led, which is optional) and FOX924B crystal oscillator. The rest si just pure wiring. The other 2 two adapters need a voltage regualtor and 4 tranisitors to adapt voltage levels, so there are a few basic electrical elements more...

P.S.

Suppose that Velleman would have realized the advantages of my PIC32MX250F128B design and that they would have offered me cooperation to produce a new "native" experiment board kit with PIC32MX250F128B.... It would have been light years better than the current K8055 and K8055N-x designs. It would have been as easy to build and it would have cost approximately the same to produce as existing K8055N-2 kits. Firmware is already available from PC USB Projects. Circuit schematic could have been easily refined from the PIC32MX250F128B adapter to K8055N experiment board and the experiment board existing circuit... But I'm afraid that many existing kits would not have sold anymore, if such a versatile kit would have been introduced...

Cheers!


Last edited by simonvav on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:35 am, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Nobody can upload pictures to the forum. Not even the Velleman staff. And please note that I am not Velleman staff, just a forum member like you.

To post your picture I hot-linked the picture that you posted on your own site. Right click that picture on your site and select "Copy Link Location". Then in the forum post editor click the "Img" button and paste the URL to your picture between the IMG tags. That said, if you want to point people to your "upgrade" projects, I would suggest opening dedicated threads for that with an appropriate Subject, instead of attempting to hijack each and every thread, that has K8055 in it. Your posts would stand a greater chance to survive.

And I stand corrected. Your adapter does enable Full Speed USB by not connecting VUSB from the adapter to VUSB on the K8055, thereby not providing 3.3V to R35. Should have spotted that earlier.

BTW, this is how I solved being able to convert back to the original PIC on the K8055. I just replaced R35 and X1 with these little sockets, so I can easily exchange the crystal and put the resistor back in. The PIC18F2550 runs fine with the original 33 pF capacitors at 4 MHz (not present in the picture), although the datasheet suggests 27 pF ones.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:23 am 
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BUT:
K8055-1 is not produced anymore by Velleman. However, you my PIC18F2550 solution requires just to replace the crystal and to remove R35 resisitor: https://sites.google.com/site/pcusbprojects/4-velleman-experiment-board-k8055-pic-replacement/w-velleman-k8055-1-board-easy-upgrade....


This is mine solution to connect PIC18F24J50 or PIC18F26J50 to K8055N-2: "Simple firmware upgrade: https://sites.google.com/site/pcusbprojects/4-velleman-experiment-board-k8055-pic-replacement/1-simple-pic-replacement-that-adds-more-functionalities-like-10-bit-a-d-conversion-and-additional-analog-input-channels"... You just replace the chip, because PIC18F24J50 and PIC18F26J50 are both "native" to K8055N-2 experiment boards... PIC18F26J50 is almost the same than PIC18F24J50, but it has 64 KB EEPROM instead of 16 kB. And it costs just a few cents more. Both have approx. 4 kB RAM...However, PIC18F25K50 has just 2 kB RAM, which is much more limiting and prevents FW to do more complex tasks that require more memory. Not to mention that the same amount of memory is consiumed for USB support.

Image
Click in the photo to enlarge it.

So where is your advantage?


Last edited by simonvav on Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:24 pm 
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simonvav wrote:
BUT:
K8055 is not produced anymore by Velleman...
Does that make your adapter obsolete?

simonvav wrote:
However, PIC18F25K50 has just 2 kB RAM, which is much more limiting and prevents FW to do more complex tasks that require more memory. Not to mention that the same amount of memory is consiumed for USB support.


2 KB of RAM seems plenty to me. The Open8055 Firmware only uses 663 bytes of RAM (including what the USB stack consumes) yet and fits into 5 KB of the available 16 KB of Flash memory. How much resources does your firmware need?

According to your own documentation you added some functions resembling PEEK and POKE commands to your otherwise K8055 equivalent firmware. Changing the A/D conversion to 10 bits is not a substantial change. For that you should neither need more than 16 KB of Flash, nor anywhere near 2 KB of RAM. What "more complex tasks" are you then talking about? It doesn't look like your firmware performs any complex tasks, that would require those amounts of resources. And how would someone go about adding any more complex tasks to it without the source code? Start their own firmware from scratch ... well, they could do that with the K8055N as it comes from the factory.

The main advantage of the Open8055 firmware is that it is open source. Anyone can see how it does what it does. It comes under a BSD style license, so anyone can copy or modify the code and use it for whatever they want. And it actually has more complex functionality. PEEK and POKE commands to read and write memory locations or the memory mapped CPU registers are not an equivalent to actual firmware functionality.

Having the source code under a BSD style license also means that after changing to a PIC18F25(K)50, the Open8055 firmware can be used as a source code starting point to build USB experiments, that need custom firmware functionality. And it has some examples of such functionality already built in to use and learn from.

And yes, for the K8055N one simply replaces the chip. The PIC18F2550 and PIC18F25K50 both run without any hardware modifications on it. I stated that several times now.


Last edited by MostlyHarmless on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:22 pm 
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It is not a bad itea to read my Programming guides. Most programmers appreciate so called "PEEK" (direct memory read) and "POKE" (direct memory write) commands... They are perfect to program microcontroller functional units that mostly need an initial configuration to start operating, like: timers, RTC, .... But you have to inbuilt FW subrutines that require fast execution, like microcontroller programming protocols, I2C protocols, independant operations, like thermostatic control, low frequency generator, etc. These are the ones that I of course inbuilt in my FW... All the software examples are provided...

I have made more adapters and PIC32MX250F128B adapter to K8055N-2 board is certainly not obsolete...

This is in fact PIC32MX250F128B adapter to K8055-1 adapter:

Image

but the K8055N-2 adapter is much simpler since it doesn't need a 3.3 V voltage regulator and voltage adapters (see the schematic from my previous posts), but the principle of attaching it to the K8055N-2 board and PICkit3 for "on the fly" debugging/programming is similar.....

I wish you good luck with PIC18F2550 and 2 kB RAM... You may check may new PIC32MX250F128B User Guide, to check how many of the listed functionalities there can your FW support: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxwY3VzYnByb2plY3RzfGd4OjMyNzYxYWI0ZDA1YmMyNjg


Last edited by simonvav on Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Simon,

you didn't answer any of my questions. I find it rather impolite that you ask questions, get them answered, but do not answer any questions in return. Did you even read all of my post? Do you really come here only to make posts containing the "breadcrumbs", that you placed on the pages of your banner-ad money making web site, hosted by the exact same company, that provides the "well known search engine", you so heavily suggest to use? I have seen many of your since deleted posts. They seldom have anything to do with the original question, but rather just attempt to redirect readers to your site. It is annoying, to say the least.

BTW, I could easily compile the Open8055 firmware to run on the PIC182xJxx devices. A few changes to the config section, the IO port mappings and a couple conditional compiles in the A/D section is all it takes. Previous versions of Open8055 did run on PIC18F2xJ50, no problem to dig out that old code. I also have a PIC18F2xJ50 boot loader laying around.

However, the J-devices do not have any EEPROM (and you apparently don't know the difference between EEPROM and Flash memory - hint: The "F" in PIC18FxxJxx stands for Flash).

Anyhow, so what is the real reason why you can't show us the source code of your firmware?


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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:07 pm 
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simonvav wrote:
You may check may new PIC32MX250F128B User Guide, to check how many of the listed functionalities there can your FW support: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxwY3VzYnByb2plY3RzfGd4OjMyNzYxYWI0ZDA1YmMyNjg


That explains a lot and especially why you need that much memory and CPU power.

You, Simon, definitely need Maxi-Micro-Controllers. That much is clear now.

ETA: I am not going to respond to any more of your nonsense unless you answer my questions. The moderators did a pretty good job in the past of removing your obnoxious posts and there is nothing much to learn from the rest of them. Good bye.


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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Believe me; it is not about the money... It is about my enthusiasm... I liked PIC18F24J50 very must at the beginning, but as I got to know all the limitations of 8-bit micronstrollers, I started to think about 16-bit PIC24 and the ultimate 32-bit microcontrollers... At first it was hard to start the things going, to overcome the techincal questions. But now I'm delighted, when I see that I little microcontroller's heart is actualy a 32-bit MIPS RISC processor that used to power the power workstations in the early 90'.

The term "flash RAM" was invented by Toshiba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory). I prefere though to use the term "EEPROM". I know that flash RAM is a special kind of EEPROM. But from the programmer's point of view, it represents a non-volatile memory that unlike RAM doesn't need energy to preserve data.

I agree with you that we have each a different view of the World and I agree that we disagree. I'm not going to disqualify your hard work, like you would probably like to do with mine.
I try to offer to users much more additional functionality, more speed and more fun, while you are seeking an open source solution with more or less similar functionality as the original Velleman K8055-1 and K8055N-2 boards. I've overviewed your source code and it is technically based on Microchip libraries, just like mine. It is much less optimized than I anticipated. The major difference between us is that you think small and I think big. You prefer to drive an optimized "Mini Cooper", while I prefer to drive a "Mercedes", which costs approximately the same, but has a lot more to offer... But don't think that the "Mercedes" was not optimized, just the optimizations were made differently.. I've read all your posts and I think that I answered all the relevant questions, now..

Only the time will decide who of us was right... We obviously have different philosophies.... I'll let you have the last word...

So, let's stop this debate...


Last edited by simonvav on Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:00 am, edited 14 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K8055 with Windows 7
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:47 pm 
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simonvav wrote:
.. let's stop this debate...

Agreed.

May I ask you at the same time to please stop spamming this forum with entirely useless references to your "breadcrumbs"?


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